Initial thoughts...

[measi]

My husband, my housemate, and I were glued to the screen in near silence for an hour. We all enjoyed it... a lot, but we were rather contemplative and soft-spoken once it ended as we gave our initial thoughts.

There is so much to talk about in this episode. For now, I'm just going to focus on the endings for Rose and Donna. I'll express thoughts on Mickey, Martha, Jack, and Sarah Jane later...

I forsee a lot of my friends list being very angry with what happened with Rose, and I can understand why. I'm a bit mixed on it, personally. Very sad that she's not with the Doctor as we've all known and loved (or hated, depending on your opinion on Ten) for the past three years. Sure, it's a bit cold for him to leave her in that parallel world with her mum, hurrying back to the TARDIS. And that annoys me a bit, thinking about it.

But you know what? At the same time, I'm also okay with it because it continues to remind us that the Doctor isn't human. In that bit, he was as alien as ever. While yes, he does love Rose - and asks whether his saying the words "I love you" honestly need to be said, his counterpart can say the words, can understand the human need to have them said - or can say something similarly romantic - that makes her kiss him. The Doctor, as a Time Lord, cannot have that domestic life. His life of running, of being afraid to look back because of the destruction in his wake - that's just the reality of Doctor Who since the series started back in 1963.

Yet at the same time, he's able to offer a part of himself to Rose - tying back into that heated conversation outside the cafe in School Reunion, that echoed on the beach in Doomsday. This part of himself can have that life that he could never have - living his life, day after day. Being able to age, not having to watch his companion wither and die as he remains constant (in theory... this is the Doctor we're talking about, who goes through lifespans faster than your average human through carelessness... *grin*) It's honestly the highest of trust he puts in Rose to take this part of himself - himself with all of the anger and rage from the Time War - and allow her to use that compassion and acceptance that helped him find himself again in S1-S2 toward this new version of himself. He admits that Rose made him better, and that the new version of him needs her - which is very him.

This, to me, makes it okay. It really does.

It's probably because I'm someone who doesn't need the Doctor and Rose to be together romantically in canon. I can have fun with them in fanfic, and then place them back on the shelf. But that kind of trust and respect - to me, that's honestly a much stronger, deeper love.

I'm okay. Sad to see Rose go, but at the same time I see her as having such a strong, fantastic purpose - keeping that other world safe, defending the Earth and saving the Doctor all over again? Yeah.

I'm happy. I'm okay with that.

Donna's ending, on the other hand, I find much more disturbing and sad. I adored Donna, and I knew she wasn't coming back next series. Maybe that made the blow a bit easier to take. But oh, how disturbing the idea that her best qualities - the motivated woman who was driven to find the Doctor, to celebrate the joy of traveling with him, even as she cried and asked in knee-jerk responses to be taken home because she realized it wasn't all joy and light out in the universe...

The literal destruction of everything wonderful about Donna, leaving the vapid, gossipy, tabloid-loving woman behind? That kills me and angers me. I know it's meant to. It's a tragic loss for Donna, and as Wilf said... she was better with the Doctor, and I don't mean because she gained Time Lord thoughts. She came into her own while traveling with the Doctor. We watched a companion who received horrified responses when it was announced she'd be joining the cast full time. So many people turned around, admitting they were pleasantly surprised about her. And even though I was excited about the Tennant-Tate pairing, having loved TRB and the Red Nose Day timing between them... I was also surprised at how moving Tate was as Donna during her emotional bits.

I loved having a companion who wasn't the picture-perfect early 20's girl. Really did. Loved having someone who was stuck at that middle age crossroads, not knowing what to do with her life - and yet she manages to find herself through traveling in space and time.

The fact that she is remembered on so many worlds (both seen on screen and in book and possible future radio adventures) makes me feel better while I mourn her.

So this time, my sadness is much more for Donna than Rose here. Rose is okay - she still has her family, she'll continue fighting and surviving and being the tough, stubborn woman she's been.

Donna has lost everything. To me, much more tragic. As my husband said "Honestly, it would have been better that she died." Living without the knowledge of who you actually are? Horrific.

Still - a great episode. One I know I will watch over and over again. And in time, I'll probably develop a lot more thoughts about it as I get all of the other nuances in it.

Off to watch the Confidential. And then probably the episode again at least a couple times before bed. :)

Comments

[kalleah.livejournal.com]

I am satisfied with the episode and I think I'm going to be more so once I've had some time to dwell on it and rewatch.

Blue!Ten is the Doctor. He thinks of himself as the Doctor; he has the Doctor's memories; he loves Rose. He isn't exactly the Doctor, but he is, in a way. He's also part Donna, and that's lovely, too.

As for Donna ... I think she would have chosen to die rather than lose her memories, but Ten didn't let her make that choice.

[measi.livejournal.com]

Blue!Ten is the Doctor. He thinks of himself as the Doctor; he has the Doctor's memories; he loves Rose. He isn't exactly the Doctor, but he is, in a way. He's also part Donna, and that's lovely, too.

Exactly. It's honestly a beautiful way to end it, and shows how much the Doctor-point-one loves Rose - he entrusts her with himself, to save him and make him better all over again.

This time with slightly added Donna!fire. :)

As for Donna ... I think she would have chosen to die rather than lose her memories, but Ten didn't let her make that choice.

And again, I think that's the alienness of him. Did it even occur to him to let her have a choice? He moved far too quickly to allow the opportunity.

But was it him being selfish, thinking he was preventing her from dying like (as Davros reminded him) all of those people who sacrificed themselves for his cause?

The irony being that she still does, and he forces her to.

[chloris67.livejournal.com]

Sure, it's a bit cold for him to leave her in that parallel world with her mum, hurrying back to the TARDIS.

It *was* cold. He can't get out fast enough. But he knows that he's leaving her with himself, him 10.5, but still him. And this is a him who belongs with Rose, which he knows he doesn't.

The fact that she is remembered on so many worlds (both seen on screen and in book and possible future radio adventures) makes me feel better while I mourn her.

This does help. It also helps to remember that time in the Whoverse is a big timey wimey ball, so she's out there right now being awesome. I like that thought.

[goblynn.livejournal.com]

I'm generally content with how it wrapped up--not perfectly content, mind you, but an overall satisfaction.

I'm sure there are going to be some "how could she?" comments regarding Rose's quick acceptance of HumanDoctor, judging by the kiss, but I chalk it up to her emotion at FINALLY hearing those words (which I could tell were THE words, as I was staring rather hard at DT's jawline as he said them). I hate RTD writing such a hasty exit for the Doctor--was it because he knew Donna was deteriorating? or was it Ten not being able to watch Rose kiss him-but-not-him?

Part of me knows that Rose staying in this universe would mean she'd be forced to leave at some point--lost somewhere, killed, growing old...something. This way--well, Ten knows she wanted so much more from him, and she's going to have that. NewTen has the intelligence, the wit, and that devotion to Rose...could we have really asked for more? RTD gave us something I didn't expect--frankly, I figured Rose surviving would be good fortune!

I do wish she'd been able to get a kiss from the original Ten, but I'll be happy with what we were given. (Besides, there's no way to guarantee we *won't* see Rose again, right? ;-)

[jedi_of_urth]

I'm upset with Rose's ending on some levels, but saddened by Donna's on just about all levels, there is no good in her ending, just...blankness. Actually it upset me a lot on the Doctor's behalf almost as much as Donna. He's had companions left without memory of him before, but this time he had to do it, he had to take away everything she was and all they were, and that...makes it even worse, and it's pretty bad to start with.

I'm probably going to wind up doing a lot of bitching about Rose's end, but Donna's (and the Doctor's) was what made me cry.

[chicklet73.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love what you said here. About Rose and the Other Doctor, and about the tragedy of what happened to Donna. And how you can still really enjoy the episode, feeling all of this. It's exactly what I wanted to say but so far have been to incoherent and overwhelmed to do so.

[rommies-voice.livejournal.com]

My initial thoughts over this are conflicting. As I've said it my journal I got everything I'd ever hoped for but yet also everything I'd ever feared.

Donna got to live, but at what cost? All her memories all she became. This saddens me a great deal.

Rose and the Doctor got to be together, but also not without cost, our Doctor is still alone, having to give up Rose again, and giving her up to his alt self that must be hard. I think he left so quick to make it easier on Rose she would have cried that bit harder if she had seen our original Doctor all broken up over the thought of leaving her again.

Like you said though I'm happy that she has a purpose of not only saving the wold but being entrusted by the Doctor to look after and heal his alt self. At least he knows she happy now.

It really was the best ending I could hope for the Doctor and Rose got to be together and Donna didn't die, but still I can't help but feel sad.

[measi.livejournal.com]

You're supposed to feel sad, though. This episode doesn't have a neat and tidy ending, and honestly that's what's so great (and courageous) about it. It's not the neat and tidy ending. Honestly - it couldn't be. This is Doctor Who we're talking about.

Donna's ending bothers me. Disturbs me much deeper than Rose's does in every respect, because it is a death - without her physical form dying. I find that horrific.

But because I find it horrific, I consider the episode a success. It projected the emotions and the impact it wanted to.

[solarflar3.livejournal.com]

Completely agree with your comments on Ten, Rose and Ten.5, we needed closure I think but it was very bitter sweet.

Donna, well I am gutted about her. She grew so much and became such a wonderful person. She saved lives, worlds and the Doctor himself on more than one occasion. To take that away from her is heartbreaking.

Catherine Tate herself in my book is an awesome actress. I love her and personally I think that she should be canonised as Saint Catherine; the Patron Saint of New Who!

[roxyk630.livejournal.com]

I think you and I are in the EXACT same state right now. I just watched it... and I liked it... but I didn't like what happened with Donna and... I didn't like being left with the feeling that the Doctor didn't move on/accomplish something either. Not that there should BE large fanfare... just... I dunno.

XD; I'm kind of the same way with the Doctor/Rose/Doctor ending.
"Blue suit Doctor, Meet Blue Jacket Rose. No TARDIS, sorry, the suit will have to do. Enjoy."

[nyaaaaaauuuuuuu.livejournal.com]

I have still not come to terms with Rose's exit (though I feel the same way you do about Donna's).

I have still not come to terms with Rose's exit (though I feel the same way you do about Donna's). sensiblecat wrote that she thought it was really too rushed, and I agree. I also don't like how RTD wrote Rose or the Doctor on that beach scene, not to mention the standing about like lemmings while Davros ranted, but again I think that stems mostly from the timing and trying to make sure to tie up all plot points before the ending credits.

So, yeah, I'm a bit angry. Less than I was just after I watched it, but still more than a little in denial. I wasn't expecting it to be perfect, or for everyone to have happy endings. But for everyone to have happy endings except the Doctor, Rose, and Donna? And the endings they were given? Ouch. I'm still in pain.

Thoughts on Donna

[talonscar.livejournal.com]

There's a copy of Donna's mind in Doctor Whoman - I'm sure they could find a way to restore her original memories to her if she does come back.

There's are several plot problems with wiping her memories in the way he did.

1) What memories, exactly, remain of her relationship with her fiancee?
2) What memories remain of her travels around the world / her motivation for them?
3) What happens if Donna runs into a member of Torchwood, Unit, or Sara Jane? Which leads to...
4) Why didn't the Doctor tell his 'children of time' what he needed to do to Donna to ensure that 3) didn't occur? Which leads to...
5) If the Doctor had told them, wouldn't Donna have opted to be put in a Cryo chamber in Torchwood rather than having her mind wiped?

[swankkat.livejournal.com]

Finally working my way through the reaction posts of people I thought might have positive or at least semi-positive views of the finale.

I'm so totally okay with Blue and Rose's version of "happily ever after." In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I've transfered my shipping tendencies to go that way.

Like you, it was never an extremely high priority for me to see the Doctor and Rose get involved romantically in canon. Sure it was fun to speculate about it, but I preferred leaving such things to fanfiction (or fanart, as in my case). Seeing Blue and Rose take the dynamic to the next level on screen? Is more than I ever hoped or wished for. And I'm more than okay with that.

Donna's tale is just ultimately unsatisfactory. But part of me hopes that, despite having her memories blocked, she would still retain some of her growth as a person. I have hope for Donna, even thought the ending cut me up, that Wilf (and perhaps to some extent Sylvia) will be the sort of encouraging moral support that she needs. And with that, the portion of Donna that blossomed under the Doctor's tutelage and friendship can slowly emerge. Won't be the same, but I have faith that the potential for greatness is there - just like it always has been.

My biggest beef is how this episode ended. Not digging the bleak, without hope feeling of the final moments. Had they ended it with Wilf's parting words (which, while sad, were very sweet and hopeful), without following the Doctor into the quiet TARDIS console room? Would have been fine. I was waiting for that jarring "WHAT?" moment and we never got it. Sort of anti-climatic for a series that loved to leave you going "We have to wait SIX MONTHS NOW?!!"

Still, overall, liked the episode, and I honestly can't see changing anything without resorting to character death. Which I wouldn't want for RTD's vision of the program. (Maybe in S5...? Moffatt seems like he could pull off companiondeath a lot easier than RTD could.)

Err, sorry for verbally spamming your LJ long after you did this initial review. Just wanted to share my thoughts with someone like-minded. :)